EPISODE 68 - Top Tips on Hiring as Your Business Grows with Hannah Murphy
Is it time to hire? Need some help to get started? Hannah Murphy shares top tips on hiring as your business grows!
LISTEN TO THE EPISODE HERE:
Are you thinking about hiring but have NO idea where to start? We dive into step by step how to Hire with our guest, Hannah Murphy!
We cover when to hire, what to do before your hire, what to look for, how to train your new team members how to set them up for success, how to handle when mistakes happen and what to do if things go south!
We also dive into the different pros and cons of hiring a contract worker or someone to join your team! If you are at a point in your business where you might be considering hiring, or you would like to in the near future, this is a MUST listen!
Hannah’s Journey into Entrepreneurship
Hannah shares how she started her business in 2016 as a side hustle that she could be passionate about and feel fulfilled while she was getting her teaching degree. She stumbled into a Virtual Assistant (VA) position through an entrepreneur in the USA, who first bridged her into the business world and community. Through this job, she was able to sort through what she liked and what she didn’t like and found that she could excel in Pinterest management, which paired well with blog management. She was able to upskill in it and then was able to launch her Pinterest & Blog management business, growing quickly from 3 to 27 clients in 6 month, establishing a successful agency.
This season offered her a huge growth opportunity, and she found that she learned lots in trial by fire!
She eventually incorporated her love for teaching by launching a coaching and education facet of her business, as she graduated with a teaching degree while scaling her agency.
The When and Why of Hiring
As a business is launched, the number one priority is client onboarding and retention. Hannah focused on getting clients, and quickly found that, as she grew, it was crucial to continue delivering quality service.
Outsourcing - Hannah knew she needed to outsource to maintain growth and excellence, but she wanted to make sure that her business could outsource successfully by continuing to deliver referral-worthy work, without her needing to micro-manage every project. PAIN POINTs
There’s no point in outsourcing something if it’s not going to bring profit to your business. Hiring, when done incorrectly can be a huge drain and burden. So, before you hire, do a brain dump and ask yourself:
What do I enjoy doing and do not want to outsource?
What makes sense to bring profit into my business?
Who to Hire
When you decide to hire, you need to take time to decide if you need to contract an expert in the field of your pain points or hire someone who’s skill set is not expert-level.
Benefits of hiring an expert:
Can hire on a project basis
Can give you a taste of excellent work and can show you what good results look like
Can establish good working systems
You don’t need to train them
Benefits of hiring a novice:
They usually have buy-in to your business
They can be trained into different roles/areas in your business
Cost-effective
Hannah recommends that you start on a contract basis, whether you decide to go with an expert or not, as it will give you a taste of what you need and how this person may fit into your business.
What to look for in a new hire:
Personality
What traits does this role require? For example, if you are hiring for client experience, you need someone who exhibits caring, kind, over-and-above tendencies. For filling a growth role, you need someone who is ambitious and number-driven.
Ask yourself “what are my business needs?” You want a holistic picture, someone who can fill the gaps that you cannot fill and balances out your team. Hannah suggests using tools like the Enneagram to determine the strengths and communication style of potential hires.
Ask yourself, “Do they generally care about my business?” Have they done the research on your business? Do they know what you’re all about and have goals for growth? Have they bought in? Can your team jive with this person?
Skill-ability
Skills can be trained and taught, but there is a level of ability someone needs coming in. IE, if you need someone to fill a design role, they need an eye for design or if you need someone for an administrative role, they need to be able to lean into details and deadlines. You can always do a test project prior to hiring someone to determine how they approach tasks, turnaround time, etc.
Empowering New Hires to be Successful
So you have made the hire, and you want to make sure your new hire is able to do the job and do it well! What do you do to empower them in the role?
Communicate expectations via success metrics.
Be very clear with goals and expectations, so you can always come back to them if the hire misses the mark.
Use a project management system.
This enables the new hire to thrive in their position and enables your business to keep moving forward regardless of circumstances. Without a system, the pressure is entirely on the person.
Release responsibility.
Look at how you can train someone to be an expert at their job in accordance with your values. You can train in phases:
Observance - they watch you do the job.
Guided practice - you observe them practice what they’ve learned by watching and are available for guidance.
Hands-off - they do it on their own, and you check it.
Ownership - they fully function in the role, can solve problems entirely on their own and are able to grow your business from their role.
Why and How to Fire
Entrepreneurs often shy away from hiring because they fear that a new hire may not work and they don’t want to deal with the messy process of letting someone go. This fear is a worst-case scenario and should not drive you as your business grows and hold you back from hiring. However it’s true, sometimes, no matter how you empower someone to do a job well, they just aren’t the right fit. So Hannah takes some time to answer how do you know when to let someone go, and how do you do it with dignity and help both of you to move on?
Here’s the truth - it IS possible to walk away intact when a job doesn’t work out. Remember, it is always a learning opportunity.
Prevention
Even if the person is a good fit, they will still make mistakes, and it is your job to communicate what went wrong and how they can do better. Take a step back and ask yourself “Why is this happening?”
Before a situation escalates, make sure you have put systems in place to ensure check-in points for your hire and yourself.
Ask yourself, “Is this a one-off mistake or a problem that can be rectified?”
Schedule an in-person meeting. Text, whether email or app messaging, etc, can tend to promote miscommunication.
Have an honest check-in. Make sure they know what you appreciate as well as what you’d like to correct.
Re-emphasize your expectations.
Give them ownership by giving them opportunities to be accountable to you with solutions and are able to implement them accordingly.
If they are unable to be accountable and show a pattern of inability to improve, then that when it’s appropriate to consider termination.
When and How to Let Go
It’s never fun to fire someone. However, sometimes, as a business owner, it is inevitable.
When to consider letting someone go:
Repeat patterns of negligence
Inability to take accountability for mistakes
Other major issues
How to let someone go:
Begin with telling them what they did wrong. Remind them of the expectations you have already reviewed and how they did not meet them.
Communicate that it’s not about them, it’s about the situation. This may be a situation where you are able to tell them that you want the best for them, but that this role does not empower or enable their best, whatever that may be.
Point out their strengths and how they can grow. Try to be positive.
Final Thoughts on Scaling, Success, and Hannah’s Journey
Ask yourself “What do I want scaling to look like?”
This is crucial to building your own roadmap and defining your own success! Filter every piece of advice through your own lens and ask yourself what is most important to you as you build your business. Remember your values, and prioritize those as you grow and build systems and teams. Have FUN! Even on the hard days, have a vision you can be in love with.
Still Here
Hannah talks about being proud to still be strong and standing in her business, being unafraid to pivot, and listening to her gut as she has grown. She is proud to scale her business with humanity, still building one-on-one connections with her clients and serving them wholeheartedly.
Connect with Hannah:
Free training: withhannahandco.com/free
Socials: @withhannahandco
Website: withhannahandco.com
Our Top Business Resources to Support Female Entrepreneurs:
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Action Takers Club: Our Signature Business Course + Community to Support you in Scaling a Profitable Business
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One on One Business Coaching and Strategy Consulting with Danielle Wiebe
transcript
[00:00:00] Danielle: Hello, and welcome back to the podcast. Thank you for joining us today. We have a very highly requested topic that we are diving into today. For those who are listening to the podcast, we have had this request so many times, and I'm so excited that we're finally covering it. So we're going to be talking about all things hiring and I'm so excited to bring on a special guest Hannah Murphy, who is a business strategist, as well as a virtual assistant who helps entrepreneurs create profit- focused schedules that eliminates unnecessary task- switching, long nights and never ending to do lists.
[00:00:34] In today's episode, I asked Hannah everything to do with hiring. So we cover, when to hire, what to do before you hire, what to look for in your new candidates, how to train your new team members and how to set them up for success. And then also how to handle when mistakes are made and what ends up happening if things go south. So we dive into also the difference between hiring an expert or [00:01:00] someone to actually join your team and when to do either or.
[00:01:04] So, if you are at a point in your business where you might be considering hiring someone for the first time, or maybe you've had a bad experience in the past, and you're kind of scared to do that next hire, or maybe you're looking to do that in the future, this is a must- listen. You guys, you are going to love this episode and Hannah just gives us so much, she breaks it down just step-by-step. I'm really excited for you guys to tune in.
[00:01:28] Before we jump in, though, I wanted to remind you about our giveaway that's happening right now. So if you haven't heard yet, we are almost at 15,000 downloads for this podcast which is so exciting, and by the way, thank you so much for being a part of this community. It has been so exciting to see this podcast grow. So we have three different prizes that we're giving away.
[00:01:51] Number one is a power strategy session with me, which is one-on-one coaching. And you have the option, if you want that coaching session [00:02:00] featured on the podcast, we can feature it on the podcast. Again, it doesn't have to be featured, but there's that option to do so. Number two is free access to our action takers club program and the bonuses, which is the profitable workflow system and automation toolkit. And then number three is a feature of your business, both on one of our podcast episodes and on our business babes collective Instagram.
[00:02:25] So this is going to take you two minutes to enter. You guys, all you have to do is subscribe to this podcast. Just hit that follow button on iTunes or on apple and leave a review on apple. So all you have to is scroll down to the very bottom, click the review button and leave us a review. And then you can send a screenshot of that to me on Instagram.
[00:02:46] So send it to @danilivinglife, DANI with an I living life, you can send me a message and let me know that you left a review of the podcast and that is it. If you don't have Instagram, that's totally fine, you can also email it to [00:03:00] me at danielle@businessbabescollective.com. So that's all you have to do to enter.
[00:03:04] Again, it's going to take you less than two minutes and you guys, it makes such a difference for us. That is the way to have more reviews of the podcast is a way that we can get out to more people and more people can find out about this podcast. So thank you so much for your support. Thank you for those of you who have shared this podcast with your friends and shared it on social media. It honestly means the world to me. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. You guys are amazing. I absolutely love this community and I'm just so excited to continue to pour into this community. And also we have something really, really incredible exciting episode coming your way. So definitely subscribe so that you don't miss an episode. Thank you so much for being here and let's go ahead and get started with our episode two.
[00:03:54] Welcome to the business babes collective podcast. I'm your host, Danielle Wiebe. In this [00:04:00] podcast, you'll learn tangible business tips and strategies on how to grow successfully and sustainably. We'll also interview seasoned entrepreneurs so you can listen in on their stories and see behind the scenes of what it took to grow and scale their business. Let's dive in as we discussed the wild, exciting, crazy, challenging, roller coaster ride of entrepreneurship.
[00:04:24] Okay, welcome Hannah to the business babes collective podcast. I'm super excited to have you here today.
[00:04:30] Hannah: Thanks for having me. I'm so excited, too.
[00:04:32] Danielle: Awesome. So why don't we start off by you just sharing a little bit more about your journey. How did you get into this crazy thing? We call entrepreneurship?
[00:04:41] Hannah: Yes, it is a crazy thing, right? I always am like, it's literally just like a daily rollercoaster ride. You don't know where it's going, but it's still fun, still here. Yeah. So I started my business 2016, 2017, and I had just finished year 12 at [00:05:00] school. And I was moving, if you can't tell I'm in Australia. So hopefully my accent, okay. That's good.
[00:05:08] But I'm moved up to a different place in Australia to start studying primary teaching. And it was a four year degree. I'd always wanted to be a primary teacher. Like I literally didn't really know the business world existed. Like I had, I just had no idea of it, but, um, I was in my first, yeah, I was in my first year of university and I was trying all the like typical, you know, like side jobs of like retail and hospitality and all of those jobs before and after school care and just all of those kinds of things and it just wasn't fulfilling.
[00:05:40] And I was like, I have to do a four year degree. That's four years of my life. I kind of don't want something that's just more on the side for while I'm in uni. Like, I actually want something that I really enjoy and can, you know, use this season of my life really well. And so I started looking into, you know, all different things and what that could look [00:06:00] like and everything like that.
[00:06:01] And then I was following a business coach in the U S on Instagram. Honestly, no idea how I was following them. Like just, it was amazing, but they posted on their Instagram story that they were looking for a VA to hire. And I was like, I literally had to Google what a VA was because I truly just knew nothing about it.
[00:06:21] Yeah, so that it was a virtual assistant. And I was like, oh, that sounds interesting. So I reached out to her and I was like, look, I literally have never done this before, but I am so happy to learn. It sounds really fun. It sounds like within my skill set, like I was kind of organized, sort of used to running events and stuff in school.
[00:06:38] So anyway, she was very gracious in giving me that job and that was my first bridge into the business world. And then from there, I just, that contract was very much, I, kind of like a miscellaneous VA, like you do pretty much everything and anything, which was so what I needed, because then I was able to see what I liked and what I didn't like.
[00:06:58] And one of those [00:07:00] things was Pinterest management. So she like paid me to take some Pinterest courses and learn it. And so then I was able to kind of upskill in Pinterest and from there. I really liked Pinterest and it obviously paid really well with blog management. And so that is then when I launched my blog and Pinterest management services.
[00:07:19] And from there, it grew really quickly. So I went from like three to 27 clients in six months. And that was like the time where I really learnt a lot about productivity and client experience and hiring, like bringing on a team to help. And so that's kind of been where I started to pivot because other people were asking, how did you do this?
[00:07:42] How do you manage all of these clients? And so that's kind of why I shift now I still have a blog management agency and a team, and I still do that, but I also have the coaching education side of my business, which I really love and brings in that teaching background. So I graduated in 2020 for primary teaching.
[00:07:59] So I [00:08:00] still have the degree, but I have never gone full time because I just, yeah. As you said, It's a crazy, crazy place, but I love it. It's like also fun.
[00:08:10] Danielle: Yes. Oh, I love it. I think that's a way to describe it. It's a crazy journey, but so much fun. And I feel like once people get a taste of entrepreneurship, if they have that sort of entrepreneurial spirit, it's like, they can't go back.
[00:08:26] Hannah: So true.
[00:08:26] Danielle: I know people who have tried to go back to, you know, working corporate and they're just like, Nope, can't do it to do this. And so, yeah, I love that so much. So, okay. There's so many kinds of different things that you touched on that I'd love to kind of dive into a little bit more. So my first question for you is when you were kind of in that growth phase of scaling your business to having just a couple of clients to then I think you've said like, however many clients you have 27 or something, and within a short period of time, what were some of those biggest challenges that you [00:09:00] faced during that time?
[00:09:00] You mentioned hiring, which is something I'd love to dive into a little bit more too, and what that looks like, and, did you follow a framework for that? Or did you kind of just like make mistakes and like figure it out along the way?
[00:09:14] Hannah: Yeah, a bit of both. Like, I would definitely say as you'll see in the initial stages of creating a business, getting clients is the main pain point and problem, right. It's like, that's what you've got to do. And so initially I just dropped everything and was like, I'm going to do everything I can to get clients, even if it means, you know, working more and do it, like, I just literally just tried everything. And then from the, as you said, that scaling period, you've then got to look at how can I actually maintain quality control among clients.
[00:09:44] And that was my biggest pain point. And so, whether that looked like the systems I had in place to do that or the team. And so that was, yeah, that was a huge part of it. As you said, I kind of followed a framework or I wouldn't say it was a framework. It was more just like listening to [00:10:00] different bits of this podcast or learning from different coaches of people who had hired and what they had done and didn't do, but also there was a level of trial and error I would say as well, right?
[00:10:11] Because it's a totally different experience to having someone on your team. Then also the really hard pot for me was I wasn't just outsourcing my own blogs or my own stuff that at own end of the day, I could kind of manage all, if it didn't quite look like it wasn't the biggest problem. But when it came to actually outsourcing client work, that was really scary for me because I was, they're paying me, but I'm not even doing this anymore.
[00:10:38] I'm just in charge of making sure quality is good. And how can I, you know, I grew a lot from referrals. How can I still create that referral worthy client experience without me having to do every piece of client work? So I feel like, you know, each business owner gets to that stage where it's like, oh gosh, I like, you know, what should I hire?
[00:10:57] What does that look like? And so that [00:11:00] definitely was the phase. And I would say I was at a about 10 clients when I hit that phase of going, okay, I literally can't maintain this anymore because I am also at university and all of that kind of thing. So yeah. I'm happy to dive in more to that, but that was kind of like where the pain points were.
[00:11:16] Danielle: Yeah, no, that's so good to know. And when it comes to hiring your first person to, like you said, you have to decide, what are you going to hire for? Because you know, that's like such a big question, I feel like, for solo entrepreneurs who maybe don't have a team yet, which is a lot of people that are listening, you know, you might be running your business by yourself and you don't really know what that looks like to bring someone on.
[00:11:42] And so I love that you run a virtual assisting business. So what are some of the, I guess, benefits, drawbacks of outsourcing to a virtual assistant, let's say, and then actually bringing someone onto your team. And when does it make sense to do either or if that makes [00:12:00] sense?
[00:12:00] Hannah: Yep. Makes total sense. I definitely think that the first step before you even hire is actually looking at like, do a massive brain dump of everything that's in your business. Because one of the biggest things I learned was there's no point outsourcing something if it's not even going to bring profit into my business, right?
[00:12:19] And I feel like when we're busy, when we're stressed out, when we're overwhelmed, we just think quick, I've got to hire someone, but actually hiring, in itself, when done incorrectly can be a huge drain and a huge burden. And so that's why I'm always like before you hire, actually map out your business and go, what are the things that I really enjoy doing and I don't want to outsource? What are the things that are going to make sense to bring profit into my business.
[00:12:44] So that's kind of like, First step, if we even look at that. And then in terms of, I would say there's kind of two routes that you can go with hiring one is hiring like an expert in the field. So for example, when people were hiring me as a blog and Pinterest management, that was [00:13:00] like an expert in the field, they didn't have to train me to do it, I already knew and was researching.
[00:13:04] But then there's the other route of hiring someone who, like you said, then we'll bring in, like you're bringing them onto the team, whether it is in a contract basis or an actual employee like there's obviously legalities behind those things, but that is what that first client who hired me, that's what they did was I didn't come with any experience, but they hired me with the intention of training me up and having me do more in the business beyond just one specific area of expertise.
[00:13:32] So I find, in my experience, it was best to first hire an expert on a project basis because they came in with experience and it gave me a taste into hiring. So like, for example, I hired my own Pinterest manager, right? They knew Pinterest, but I didn't have to do any training up or anything like that. They could just take it and run with it and make sure that the systems were in place and that I, I could get a [00:14:00] taste of what outsourcing was like. And then from there I bought on someone who I trained up.
[00:14:05] So she eventually was our client manager and did pretty much all the client work, but she came in with no experience in blog, Pinterest management, nothing. She just had a great sense of design, which to me was important and where I lacked.
[00:14:19] So I definitely think you've got to look at the two routes, and I would say if you have never outsourced before, I would actually suggest like outsource a one-off kind of project. For example, outsource, you know, someone to create you a suite of designs, like in Canva or, you know, like looking at those kind of one-off projects, because that will help you get an idea of what it actually looks like in the hiring process in terms of, you know, what do you need to know?
[00:14:48] Like, how do you work in a team? Like, what is your management styles and that kind of thing to really give you an idea and then, from there, the longterm benefit of hiring someone that you train up, huge benefit is [00:15:00] cost, right? Like it definitely costs less, which is why, when I was looking at the agency style of my business, I had to bring on someone that I could train because my profit margins wouldn't be strong if I had an expert in the field, right?
[00:15:14] And then the other benefit to bringing on someone is I find they have more buy-in to your business because you know, they don't have a heap of other clients, like most experts in the field would have, and they can be trained in other areas of your business. So it's not just that one specific area. So that was like a massive answer to your question. Hopefully, it helped.
[00:15:38] Danielle: It's super helpful. And I love that idea of bringing them on for like a specific project. And not only, I love that to kind of, like you said, like, get your feet wet and figure out, you know, what it looks like to outsource, but then also to see if you work good with that person, right? Yeah. Because you might, and it's really, I find it's hard to know, you know [00:16:00] how, people are, how you're gonna work well with other people, because everyone has different personality traits and everything like that.
[00:16:05] So I guess my next question, what do you like, what would you look for as someone who's maybe okay, you you've outsourced a little bit and, and it could be for a contractor, like you said, like an expert in their field, or to bring someone onto the team, what do you look for as far as even just personality fit? Cause I think that that's something that maybe isn't talked about a lot in like hiring. So what does that look like and what kind of things should you be aware of when you are looking for someone to bring into your business? Yeah, whether it be contract or whether it be actually onto the team.
[00:16:40] Hannah: Yeah. So there's two things. The first part is the personality side and the second part is the skill side. So the personality side, um, it does depend on the role that I'm bringing in. So like, for example, if they are going to be coming into client experience, like they need to be a very caring kind, over and [00:17:00] above kind of person.
[00:17:01] But if they're coming into growth, they need to be more that ambitious, number driven, that kind of thing. So it does depend, what I'm looking for and what my business needs. So for example, I can be, my strength is very visionary, driven, that kind of thing, but I'm not really a perfectionist. So if there's someone in that I know is very detail orientated, then that's going to compliment my strengths and weaknesses.
[00:17:27] So I'm kind of looking for, I'm not looking for a copycat version of myself because we already have that part in the business. We're looking for like a holistic picture so that we can cover everything and so that people who come across my business can get different types of experiences in terms of what is needed for that kind of task, right?
[00:17:48] Danielle: Yeah.
[00:17:49] Hannah: So that's the first thing. I have found the Enneagram to be a very helpful tool. And just those kinds of personality traits. It's not to box someone in because I don't like saying, oh, you're in [00:18:00] Enneagream 4, so you have all these characteristics and you go outside of that. But it just gives me like an idea of what that person likes in terms of communication, where they, where their strengths are, how they like to communicate.
[00:18:14] So, those are big things, but the end of the day, I also always look for, do they genuinely care about my business? And I know that sounds very corny and cliche, but it is so important that they have done the research before we get on an interview that they are looking at, what can, you know, what would you improve in my business?
[00:18:33] Like they're able to answer those kinds of questions because, to me, that shows that they are not just another number for them. I'm not just a paycheck for them. You know, you, you can hire, if you're a big, big company, like all of the, you know, big name brands, it's not necessarily a huge detriment, but when you're a small business, it does really matter that the person has buy-in to your business because it's usually you and them or you and a few other team [00:19:00] members, right? So definitely does matter.
[00:19:02] And then the other part is skills. So I believe skills can be trained and taught, but there is a level of ability that someone needs coming in, right? So for example, when I was hiring for that blog and Pinterest management role, I needed someone who was strong in design because I wasn't.
[00:19:18] So, like I needed someone who had a strong design eye, and that was a skill that I was looking for. So those kind of skills are important. And the way I like to test skills is, if you're bringing someone on, especially if you're bringing someone on as a training them up, I like to do a test project before I hire them. So you can pay for that test project, right?
[00:19:40] But like my friend recently hired an inbox manager and we created a task that, you know, she put like two common emails that she got. So she took the name out of it, but it was a common email she gets, and she gave, you know, the basic information like, well, her refund policy is like, well, you know, what would be needed?[00:20:00]
[00:20:00] And then she got the person to craft a reply. Now the point of that wasn't to look for a perfect response, but it was to look for how they approach that and use the skills they currently have to do that kind of stuff. What questions are they asking to help them do it? So those kinds of things is really helpful.
[00:20:17] If I was hiring a designer, I originally got her to make 10 pin designs for this client, you know, so just looking at how can you bring in a test case, and I genuinely believe you can do that for anything you're hiring, but just looking at that, because then you can see how they approach tasks, what the turnaround time is like, you know, what, how much they care, how much effort they put in, and that kind of thing is a really good idea of skill-ability.
[00:20:41] Danielle: So, so smart. And I've heard of other people doing that, doing kind of projects and having whoever, maybe they have three or four people who they're like trying to decide between, and then it's like, okay, you do this project. And also I've, I've heard too, just from people that I know who have done that, is that they're really shocked [00:21:00] when the work comes back because they assumed that one person was going to be really strong in this area or that another person was going to be, and then they were completely wrong.
[00:21:09] And sometimes it's really difficult to know what peoples' skillsets are, they can say on paper, Hey, I'm really good at this, this and this, then when you actually get them to do the thing that they see that they're good at, oh, this actually isn't really a skill that this person has.
[00:21:25] Hannah: Good at writing.
[00:21:27] Danielle: Yeah, exactly. So that, it's such a smart, smart idea. And I love that you touched on both the skillset and then also the personality. And I think another thing that people don't really realize like when they're hiring somebody, especially if you're bringing them onto the team, is because, I'm sure you'll agree with this is that as an entrepreneur, like your mindset is just so important to just have like a positive mindset when you're just, day-to-day running your business.
[00:21:53] And if you have someone on your team, who's not a good fit as far as like personality wise or you guys are not really [00:22:00] jiving or getting along or whatever that looks like, that's going to add a level of stress and anxiety on you that is going to affect your performance as well.
[00:22:09] Hannah: Exactly.
[00:22:09] Danielle: So I think it's, so I love that you brought up both of those things. Cause it's like those two things are so important. So what are some mistakes that you see happening? So I guess, okay. We've talked about sort of the initial, this is what to look for. These are kind of the things that would be important to have once you bring them on the team, then what, because it's like, okay, I've hired someone now, what did they do?
[00:22:35] Walk us through some of that, of what would you suggest for people as far as maybe the tools or things that you need to pass on to the person that you're going to bring onto the team for them to be successful? What does that communication look like?
[00:22:50] Hannah: Totally. Again, this kind of does depend on whether you're hiring an expert or training someone up because usually that kind of experts level VA usually [00:23:00] has systems in place that you just kind of insert yourself into.
[00:23:03] So you've kind of got to think about like what's relevant in that context. But the first thing that I do, no matter who it is, whether they're an expert in the field or not, is communicating the actual data points and how to be successful in that role. Because, you know, genuinely, if they're, if they're a great hire, they want to make sure they do a good job, but they don't know how to do a good job if you don't tell them how, like they can't read your mind.
[00:23:30] So you really want to communicate, like what does a really great week look like, month look like in this role, like what are those success metrics? So like, let's say the managing your inbox. It might be inbox zero every week and it might be like an increase in referrals because they're getting great client experiences.
[00:23:49] So looking at that and just being very clear, What do you expect in the role, in a logistical way, you know, inbox zero or handing in by this date, or like what [00:24:00] that looks like, and then the actual ROI for you in terms of what does that look like? How's that helping your business and communicating that to them, not to expect perfection and put a burden on them and freak them out and put pressure on them.
[00:24:15] But it's simply just communicating where you're at and if the hire goes south, and it's not great, then you can come back to that initial conversation and go, Hey, like, this is what I'm noticing, it doesn't meet up with what I was expecting here. Do you have any ideas for how we can, you can, you can get us back on track to move to that data point and move to that success criteria.
[00:24:37] So that's huge for any role that you're going to hire. So that's the first thing I would communicate and do. The next thing is then actually the logistical system side of it. So some tools I love is like slack and voxer for the communication. And then also like a project management system. You're going to want the systems in place because like I love, you know, [00:25:00] that it's actually not so much all about the person it's about the system you have in place.
[00:25:05] Like the whole point of hiring is they outwork, the system, it's not them, you know, like a tumbleweed, just going wherever and reacting, right? And that's very important that I re I had to go through that experience as well, because I realized that if that person is sick for a day or two, I need the system to be able to rise and actually help know where we're up to on a client, help know what's happening. So that, that system is very important. And if you don't have the system, the pressure is all on the person. So if the person suddenly leaves and ghosts you, if the person isn't feeling well, if you know, if that hire, you're really stuffed.
[00:25:41] So, definitely, that was a huge learning lesson is you want the systems in place. So, when I say systems, like a step-by-step of what happens in that process, that they can tick off as they go so you know, where, where, where something's at, you know, and what that looks like. So that's huge.
[00:25:59] And [00:26:00] then the other thing I found, this is more specific to those who are hiring more like a general VA or you're training someone up is you want to like release responsibility. So this is actually something I learned to my teaching degree. So it was worth doing the teaching degree, but basically you've got to look at how you can train someone up in that, in that task to be good at it, and to be an expert because you come in with all your expectations and what you want of the role.
[00:26:26] So if you don't show all those little bits and pieces that you do within the system, then it's going to be very hard for them to actually get to a place that you're happy with. So basically you want to release responsibility. So the first week, or the first phase of the hiring is they're looking over your shoulder at what you're doing.
[00:26:44] So you basically do the task while they're watching you. And then you're, you know, explaining I do this and this, and you're going through the system and training them up in that role. The next phase of it is, then they do the task while you look over their shoulder, not in a like creepy, you know, [00:27:00] terrible way, but it's just like, you know, even if it's on a zoom call or in-person, they do the role and you're just there to help answer any questions.
[00:27:07] You're there to help make sure that they are doing the steps correctly and just looking over to make sure. And then the next step is they do it on their own and you check it. So they kind of do that role, and then you have a weekly team meeting or something like that where you're running the meeting and you're just getting them to explain what they did, what that was.
[00:27:25] And then the next phase is they're now in charge. They running the meeting, they're explaining where clients are up to or where tasks are up to, if it's a growth role. And they're starting to think creatively of how to solve problems, how to, what they can do outside the box there. And you're really just supporting them to succeed in that.
[00:27:41] Danielle: So brilliant. And I love that because I love the different steps that you used because we've implemented in our team, the feedback. So we use loom and like record feedback from, so that's awesome, but I, I've never really thought of like those, like, I love that you have different [00:28:00] steps because it's, it's perfect for like a learning.
[00:28:03] Perfect for, you know, obviously you learned that in your teaching, but it's like perfect for learning because you're so right. Like, you know, someone, I think sometimes we have such high expectations of what someone that's going to come into the business is just going to come in. They're going to be the expert, they're going to help me grow my business. Like profits are going to sky rocket. That's kind of the expectation that we have. We're not actually giving them the tools or resources or like training in order for them to be successful in their role. And then we end up frustrated and okay, I guess I have to hire someone else, like a different person.
[00:28:37] And then we'll just keep making the same, same mistakes over again. And I love that you talked about systems, you're speaking my language, but like in task management systems and having those workflows, because like you said, if someone is sick or if, you know, whatever, then, either someone else on the team can pick up those tasks or you need to step in, and if you are, you've kind of lost touch [00:29:00] with what they're doing on a day to day basis, then you're not able to be successful either.
[00:29:03] So what would you suggest? We use Asana, I don't know if you, do you use something similar or what, what do you use for task management?
[00:29:11] Hannah: Yeah, I personally use click up. I just felt like, yeah, I was on Asana for ages, but as our business grew with a lot more clients, I just found click up more like sophisticated in managing with a team. But Asana is great. Like, yeah, Asana, Trello, monday.com, clicker. Like there are an ocean there are so many different options, but I have found click up to suit me.
[00:29:33] Danielle: And most of them have either. Free or reasonable, like trials. So I always suggest for people too, it's like, just try one of them. See if you like the flow of it. If it works for you, awesome. If not try something else and just figure out what, because everyone's going to be different, your different types of businesses and all of that. So that's, that's awesome. Thank you so much for that.
[00:29:54] What would your suggestion be, if things do end up going [00:30:00] sour, as sometimes it does. What would your suggestion be, I feel like this is a hot seat question for sure. But like, what would your suggestion be for managing that situation, letting people go, if that's what you have to do, like what, what does that look like? Because I think that's what also holds people back from hiring, too. It's, they're just like scared that things are not going to work out and that if they have to end a contract or whatever, that you know, that person's going to hate them and they're going to sue them, they always like assume worst case scenarios.
[00:30:32] How can you allow both of you to move on in a really positive way where maybe you both feel really good about it. And there's no hard feelings on either side. Is that possible, well, first of all, do you think that's possible? And if it is, share with us, how?
[00:30:47] Hannah: Yeah, I definitely think it's possible and have been through my own personal experience of having to fire someone. So I totally get it. And, you know, no matter how good you are at training someone, there is always humanity [00:31:00] involved in hiring, right? And so things can go sour, south, however you want to describe it. And you know, at the end of the day, like that's just part of the crazy rollercoaster ride of business.
[00:31:10] But I will say that that shouldn't hold you back from hiring because, every time I've learned something in it, and every time it's actually helped my business get better. But don't go in thinking worst case scenario, because that will automatically set you up, allow you to be frustrated at the person, look at the little nuances they do wrong, like that that's a big, I would say mistake in hiring, going in with the thought that it could go wrong, right?
[00:31:37] So make sure you like clear your mind of all of that before you hire. But when things do go wrong, so I'm a big believer in that, if the person is actually a good fit, they're still gonna make mistakes, but it's actually our job to communicate what went wrong, what they can do better, and to actually look at that. So there's kind of, so when [00:32:00] someone is stuffing up or they're frustrating, you take a step back and go, why is this happening?
[00:32:05] So I had an experience where it was with the VA who ran everything. She was amazing, but I was getting frustrated because I was like, I don't know if she's doing this right, like, I don't know it like, it was in those initial stages and I was worried that she was going to drop the ball. Right. So I had to take a step back and go, okay, she's actually not given any data to show that she's done something wrong. So I'm going to implement a system though, to help me stop being frustrated.
[00:32:32] So what I did was we had a daily, in, you know, she didn't work every day, but the days that she worked, she had a daily check-in at the end of the day where she just said, I did this, this and this right. That helped give me peace of mind to know, oh, she's done this and this and this. So that's kind of like put before it gets really escalated, put systems in place where, you know, Where the check-in points are and what that looks like to help you feel better [00:33:00] about the role, right? And then as well to make sure that's on the same page there.
[00:33:04] So that's more like a preventative measure, but if someone has stuffed up, you've got to go, Ok, is this a mistake that was either a one-off and not reflective of their personality, or was it something that can be rectified and can be resolved?
[00:33:22] So in those situations, you want to have a meeting because things can get very miscommunicated over text, whether it's in slack or whatever. So I have a meeting say, Hey, just want to have a check-in and just be very honest. Because if you're beating around the Bush or if you're holding things in, as I said earlier, they can't mind read, they probably know they've stuffed up, but they're going to feel overwhelmed and pressured and bad for doing wrong.
[00:33:45] Right. So that's something that, um, you've just got to communicate and go, look, I really love this, this and this about you. I appreciate that you've done this and this and this well, however, this is something that happened that wasn't part of my brand and I don't want to [00:34:00] happen again. And I believe, you know, like just say, look, I know, no, one's perfect, but this is my expectation in this area and communicate what the expectation is, and then get them to take ownership and resolve.
[00:34:14] So get them to have a conversation with you. And they come to present solutions for how to improve that and have that honest conversation. Then you've had that conversation and you put measures in place to make sure that they're held accountable to implementing or to improving that. From there, if it then becomes a pattern, that's when you look at firing.
[00:34:38] So if it has become a pattern and they've had or if it was something major, you know, they just totally goes to do. And there's no way of rectifying, like use your gut that, you know, you are the business or in a, you know what you're doing, use your gut in these situations to know, okay, i, I think that we can work through this, or I think this isn't great and I need to fire them straight away.
[00:34:59] [00:35:00] By the way, the actual firing process, never fun, right? And be kind to yourself. It's this is part of being a business owner, part of hiring when it comes to it, it's never fun. But what you want to do is communicate A) what they did wrong and not in a, you suck, this is terrible. Just, Hey, I had that expectation around this and this wasn't met in this way. So just being very, to the point of what the expectation was and how they didn't meet that. So, you know, justifying why they're being fired.
[00:35:28] The second thing is then saying and communicating, it's not about them, it's about the situation, right? Because you don't want them to leave, kind of like you were saying before, you don't want someone to leave on a really bad note. And as I've kept saying, humanity comes into it, we can't be perfect. And someone, they just leave in a bad note, but you want to actually, you know, explain things in a great way.
[00:35:50] And so whether that's saying, you know, like I genuinely believe, and I want the best for you, and I don't believe this role as your best. I believe that you would be great in other [00:36:00] areas or actually pointing out what their strengths are and what they can do better. But just saying that this isn't the best for them.
[00:36:06] And, you know, being honest in that way. So do that and work through that with them and, you know, leave it on a positive note in that why they didn't do it, point out something, it's not about them. It's about the role and you want the best for them moving forward. And then logistically obviously then you've got to remove passwords from them and that kind of thing.
[00:36:26] But if it's like way escalated and terrible, then immediately you would want to remove passwords and that kind of aspect, but if it's something more, that's just kind of come to that point, you want to, you don't want to just them to wake up and they've been removed from everything with no idea why, right. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:36:44] Danielle: So I think that's where it can get really tricky. And then people I'm having a really bad taste in their mouth and all of that, so, yeah. Oh, I love that you walked us through that. So, so helpful. I feel like we're going to need to like rewind, listen to this over and like, [00:37:00] like just scribbled down like a million notes.
[00:37:03] Thank you so much. So helpful. Now when it comes to, because you've obviously been able to not only grow one side of your business, which is your agency, but you also have your online business. What is just like some, I guess general advice for, you know, growth. Obviously you talked about having systems, you talked about, you know, hiring the right people.
[00:37:25] And we obviously went through all of those different steps, which are so, so practical. Is there anything else? It could even be mindset. It could be, could be anything like, what is your suggestion for, for someone who's maybe either, you know, in their first or second year of business, and they're like starting to see that growth and they're starting to see that.
[00:37:44] And they're kind of on this like, cusp of, okay. I know that I need to start to put systems in place, start to hire, but you know, they're just sitting at that point and maybe scared to sort of take that next step. What is your advice for them?
[00:37:56] Hannah: Yeah, I, I think the biggest thing and what has helped [00:38:00] me the most is asking myself, what do I want scaling to look like? Because I think that's really important in that, you know, there is so much great advice in the business world, but that then also makes us think we have to follow it. And you know, it makes us think we have to have this, this service like this, and I have to have this service to be scalable and I have to have this inclusion to it, for it, to look like that and that marketing strategy.
[00:38:23] And it actually, um, you know, it does a lot of great noise in the business world, but you've got to filter every piece of advice through your own lens and go, what do I actually want? How much do I want to be working in my business? What do I want to actually, you know, grow my office to be because I personally went through a phase of, I thought the only way I could scale with education and having a course.
[00:38:46] And so I thought I have to do that now that I've done that client part, I have to scale that and do all of that. And I found that yes, it scaled and yes, it was great. And I loved it, but I love one-on-one connection in my business. So I had [00:39:00] to realize, I need to look at how I can scale services or how I can still have that in my business, because I love that. And so you've got a look at right, like what actually feels really fun for you to scale and not just scaling because that's how your friend did it, that's how your coach did it, that's how XYZ did it, right? Like you've got to look and filter through your own lens.
[00:39:21] And then from there, once you have a vision for how you want to scale, then, like you said, it's bringing the systems and the team in place to make that a really strong foundation to scale. But I just find yes, scaling for the point of scaling is where it gets messy. It gets uncomfortable. And it just doesn't feel good, but you always want business to feel fun and good.
[00:39:44] Even if on the hard days, you still want to have that vision that you're in love with. And yeah, that's definitely, so it's kind of a mindset thing, kind of a practical thing, but that definitely helps. And then, yeah, like you said, you've got to have systems in place and you don't have to have a huge [00:40:00] team.
[00:40:00] Just look at, what do you want your team to look like? Do you want, I found, you know, there's advice. Hi, this person, this person, this person next, and that person next, and that advice is, you know, well and valid in certain contexts. But I also look at, you know, what do I actually really enjoy doing that I don't want to outsource right now? And what do I hate doing that maybe doesn't make sense to outsource, but is really important too. So yeah, I think it's all within personal context.
[00:40:26] Danielle: So good. It's so interesting because a friend of mine and I were having this exact conversation today.
[00:40:32] Hannah: Love it.
[00:40:33] Danielle: Just about, just how, just how, yeah. You kind of just have this idea in your head, like, oh, I always need to be like scaling and growing. You need to get this and then this and this, then you see other people doing that and you have to do that. And it's just like, okay. But yeah, like what does success look like to you? What you want for your business? I love that you said that, like, what does scaling look like to you, because to one person it might mean building their team and having, you know, an office and whatever. And then to another [00:41:00] person that's just like, I just want to be a solo entrepreneur and I just want it and that's fine.
[00:41:05] Hannah: There's nothing wrong with that. Yeah.
[00:41:07] Danielle: Exactly. So I, I love that. You said that I love that you shared that because it's, I think that just gives everyone like a breath of fresh air of just figuring out what's important to them and what lifestyle that they want to live. And how does that match up with the type of business that they're running as well?
[00:41:24] So thank you so much for sharing that. Um, a question that I wanted to ask you, and I did not prepare you for this questions, but, uh, feel free to take as long as you'd like, what are you most proud of, of your entrepreneurial journey so far?
[00:41:41] Hannah: Oh, I love this question and I feel like I should have prepared for this.
[00:41:46] Danielle: I know I should've prepared you, but, surprise!
[00:41:48] Hannah: I know there's so many things, but I would actually say something I'm proud of is that I'm still here. And I know that sounds so corny, but, um, I just think that I'm [00:42:00] still here doing what I love and kind of going back to that last thing. I'm proud of myself that I always trust like that gut instinct to know, you know what, even though this was the advice I was given, it doesn't feel good for me. And so I'm not afraid to pivot or whether it's a big pivot or a small pivot. Like I'm not afraid to do that, if it means, yes, it could be uncomfortable, yes, it could totally fail.
[00:42:24] But at the same time, if it, you know, on the other side, like that's what I feel I've been called to do. If I stuff up, awesome, I learned, that wasn't the direction I was meant to go. But yeah, I think that's definitely what I'm most proud of. And also just scaling a business that still has humanity in it, like, I still love communicating with clients and team and all of that. I just, I think that's really fun.
[00:42:47] Danielle: So good. So good. I love that answer.
[00:42:49] Hannah: I love the question so much.
[00:42:51] Danielle: Well thank you so much Hannah. Can you tell everyone how they can find you, how they can connect with you and anything else you want to share before we end [00:43:00] off?
[00:43:00] Hannah: Yeah, sure. So my website and Instagram is @withhannahandco. So yeah, I would love to hear what your biggest takeaways were, if you want to message me on Instagram. And I do have a free training with hannahand co.com/free, that teaches you how to build a schedule. So if you're kind of, at that point, we like, oh, I want to scale, but you know, I don't know what step to take. Do that, because then you'll kind of look at, okay, where's my schedule? Where do I want to go? And then you can bring that support in from this conversation, but thanks so much for having me, it was so fun.
[00:43:30] Danielle: Yeah, thank you so much for being here and we'll make sure that all of those links are in the notes. So you can click on over there, but thank you so much for joining us today, Hannah, and yeah, we'll hopefully see you again very soon.
[00:43:42] Hannah: Yes. Thanks for having me.
[00:43:47] Danielle: If you love this episode, make sure you screenshot post and tag us on Instagram @businessbabesco. Want to know when the next episode goes live? Subscribe on your podcast app, and while you're there, leave us a review. [00:44:00] Until next time, keep dreaming big, setting goals and taking action.